Autism Goes To College
Autism Goes To College
EPISODE 18: Getting in - applications, advocacy, and managing senior-year stress
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The questions and stresses around college applications, essays, and admissions get a lot of attention every fall. Students on the spectrum may feel especially anxious or challenged about how to approach the process, and whether or not to reveal or even write about their diagnosis. Other questions students have might include: Are there accommodations that kick in as early as the application process? And what about the pros and cons of an in-person visit? To demystify the process and offer insights especially for students on the spectrum, this episode features conversation with admissions officials from two very different colleges. Emily Engleschall is the Associate Vice Chancellor for Enrollment Services and longtime admissions advisor at UC Riverside and Cathy Finks is the Executive Director of Admissions at the College of Wooster, a smaller private liberal arts college in Wooster, Ohio.
Hey everyone, thanks for joining us for this episode of Autism Goes to College, the podcast for students on the spectrum and everyone who supports us. Navigating college is always a challenge, so here are the hacks, insights, and great ideas you've been looking for to make college work for you. We're a group of self-advocates, we all graduated, or we're almost there. And you can do this too.
SPEAKER_03Hey everyone, I'm Eric Linthorst. Thanks for checking out the podcast. Today, something a little different. A conversation with two college admissions officers and their insights about the college admissions process, an episode I know many of you are eager to hear. On a personal note, my son just started his freshman year at Southern Oregon University, so I literally just navigated this terrain with my own son, grappling with many of these same issues around admissions, accommodations, finding supports, and the like. Before we get started, a quick share about the podcast and this project. If you haven't yet visited Autism Goes to College now has an extensive resource center on our website, autismgoes to college.org. Autism Goes to College began as a documentary film following five college students on the autism spectrum as they navigate college life. Online now you can view dozens of outtakes of important stuff from the film and stuff that didn't make it into the film, all the podcast episodes, and blogs from experts and our student advisors from the film. I directed the film and the film premiered at the Newport Beach Film Festival. We were then selected to screen at South by Southwest EDU, which of course in 2020 happened online. So with screenings limited over the past couple of years, we wanted to open up the conversation, and so we created this podcast, which launched about 18 months ago during Autism Awareness Month in April 2021. The first five episodes featured the stars of the film talking more in depth about their college experiences and talking about what they're up to now. Since then, we've heard from a college counselor who is on the spectrum himself, who helps students on the spectrum find a good college fit. And we heard from a student in a certificate program at the University of Nevada Reno, and from students at big universities, smaller colleges, and a range of experiences around the country, the ups and downs, even grad school. At the end of this episode, some details about where you can see the whole film today. And that brings us to today's episode and my two guests. We wanted to bring you insights from more than one college because, of course, there are thousands of different colleges, and the campuses, programs, and experiences available around the U.S. are very diverse. From UC Riverside, a big state university, where three of our students from the film went and graduated, and I might add, is my alma mater, we are joined by Emily Engelshaw, Associate Vice Chancellor Enrollment Services, and a longtime admissions advisor there. And from the College of Wooster, a small private liberal arts college in Wooster, Ohio, we're joined by Kathy Finks, Executive Director of Admissions there. Thank you both so much for being here.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Eric, for having us. Thank you for having us.
SPEAKER_03So let's start out uh by hearing from both of you uh a little bit about uh what colleges are looking for. And I think for our audience, there's good news here because the impression I get is colleges are looking for diversity. Is that right, Emily? Why don't you start us off?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I think diversity uh in our student body is something that is incredibly valued at the University of California, specifically on the UC Riverside campus. I think a lot of times when you think about diversity, people automatically just tie that to ethnic diversity. But it means so much more to a campus like ours. And we're looking to ensure that people coming to our campus have a diversity of experiences and backgrounds in order to add to the academic and social community of the campus. Because our students learn from each other, not just our faculty, but from each other and learn how to engage with people from all sorts of different backgrounds and experiences. And that's what makes them prepared to succeed once they graduate.
SPEAKER_03And for for people who don't know UC Riverside, maybe you can give us a quick sort of flyover, uh, tell us a little bit about UCR and what kind of school it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um we are part of the University of California system. There's nine undergraduate campuses. Our campus is one of them. Our campus, I would define it as a mid-sized campus. We have about 26,000 students, uh, over 90 majors for students to apply to and consider, and just faculty from all over the globe engaging with our student community. Lots to do. We have awesome concerts every quarter that our students really get engaged with. And um I'm just really proud to be part of the community. I've been here for over 20 years myself.
SPEAKER_03It's kind of crazy that 26,000 is considered mid-size now, but I guess that's what the that's what that's where we are. Um Kathy, so uh tell us a little bit about Wooster and then specifically about uh diversity there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks, Eric. Um yeah, I was thinking the same thing when Emily described it as a mid-sized school of 26,000. So the College of Worcester were 2,000 students, uh small private liberal arts school, uh smack in the heart of Ohio. And when you're talking about diversity, that's kind of the trademark uh of Worcester. You know, from the founding of the college in the 1800s, we had both women in the graduating class and an African-American student. And so at the time, um, that was something that we felt was really important is to include all in the education. And until this day, that's where we put a lot of resources and time. So if you're if you think about diversity and why it matters to a college, one, it's the fabric of who's there. So if you're putting students in small classrooms, you know, at Worcester, the average class size is about 14. You want them to be able to communicate and learn and learn how to navigate from their peers, as Emily suggested. And and that's really important because they're only in college eight semesters at most, right? And so you want them to go on and lead these productive lives and learn how to learn from other people and learn how to communicate, learn how to uh have a conversation that might be different. Um, and so that's why getting people from all different backgrounds, ways of thinking, ways of communicating, um, cultural identities, uh, gender identities, religious um preferences. That's why it matters to smaller barts colleges, and that's why we look for it in the admissions process, which I know is what we're gonna talk about later.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. And um, I know that students on the spectrum and their families often research what kinds of supports are available on campus, but I'm wondering where does that support start? Because let's face it, no matter who you are, the college application process can be super stressful. So for students with executive functioning challenges or maybe social anxiety, are there accommodations even as early as the admissions process? Um, Kathy, why don't you take this one first?
SPEAKER_01It's a great question. Um, and I think it's gonna it obviously will vary at every school. And kind of full disclosure, I'm going through the process right now myself. I have a senior in high school, and you can get a sense pretty quickly when you when you start to look at a school online, when you go to an information session, whether it's virtual or in person, when you start talking to the admissions process, how holistic they're gonna be in their reading and where where those accommodations could start even in the process. So, how do they connect uh to their regional admissions counselor? Is it somebody that's gonna follow them through the process? Is it somebody that um that they're gonna be able to share information with? And that's gonna vary at each school, right? And so that might not be the same. But if you're applying to some schools where you are assigned an admissions counselor and you can have start those conversations, um, you can look for ways to navigate that process for that student.
SPEAKER_03And Emily, anything to add?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess um from a larger institution, I think obviously students aren't necessarily going to have a lot of interaction on a regular basis with their with the admissions counselor that they've been assigned to. With that said, part of our mission at a large public institution is is to be a resource to students throughout the application process. So on larger campuses, that can look a little different. And some of those resources include we're regularly doing application workshops out in the community and at the high schools, and so and and there there is an opportunity to ask admissions counselors or to have a side conversation with an admissions counselor, some more personal questions that a student may have. We also post a lot of information, a lot of snippets of previous webinars that we've done online, so students can go check them out at their leisure and then connect with us afterwards if they have questions. We are definitely here to be a resource to students as they are navigating the process. I think it's interesting, Kathy has a senior in high school, I do too as well. So it definitely is interesting navigating this on both sides of the desk. And I'm I'm continuing to learn about the process, even myself. And so someone who's been in the space for as long as I have the fact that I'm still learning, I think that says a lot about the complexities of the admissions process for any student. And so it is incredibly important to ask questions and find that point person on campus that can be a resource, and they are there. You just have to be a little at larger institutions, a little bit more, a little bit more aggressive in asking for those resources and reaching out for them.
SPEAKER_03And and have you beefed up the online component in the last couple of years of the admissions process?
SPEAKER_00110%. And I'm sure Kathy can can say the same. Um as a result of the pandemic, there are so many more resources that we've put out online. And and we continue to connect with students not only in an in-person environment, but we continue to have virtual opportunities to engage with students. So there's lots of different modalities to interact with our offices, not only the admissions offices, but financial aid and other spaces on campus too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I imagine that could be great for socially anxious kids, which I think a lot of the kids on the spectrum have that sort of social anxiety piece. Almost every college application requires some sort of personal statement. So this brings up one of the big questions that we've been asked a million times, but also talked about on the podcast and even in our film. Emily, maybe you start when and and should students on the spectrum disclose their diagnosis in the application, in the essay? What are the pros and cons that you see them making this decision with?
SPEAKER_00That's a really good question and a really personal question, too. I think that is definitely something that the student needs to think about. From my perspective, I would recommend disclosing that within the personal insight questions or personal essay. At the University of California, we have a little bit of a different methodology for that personal essay side. We present students with eight different questions, and they can pick four of the eight questions to share with us information about themselves. And for us and many other large public institutions, we get so many applications that there's not an opportunity to do interviews with students. And so these personal insight questions serve as a de facto interview with a student. And it's really an opportunity for us to get to know the student outside of their academics. It's the only opportunity to do that. And what we're looking for is for students to really take an opportunity to look at all of those eight questions, pick out the four that best or most resonate with them as an individual, and then talk about what makes them them. You know, if they've if they've had challenges associated with their their high school experience that they have learned from, um, that they will bring with them to the college experience, to their college experience and add to our university community kind of through those lessons that they've learned, we want to hear those things. And so those personal insight questions, I think, are definitely an opportunity for students to share that information with us.
SPEAKER_01And Kathy? Well, let me start by saying, you know, I've been in this industry for 20 years. Um, I'm a former board member of the Colleges That Change Lives. And I think that, you know, families when they're going through this process, some are looking just for that name brand school, and some are looking for just maybe what the bottom line cost is going to be. But you hope that most are looking for that fit, right? And so when you're describing that and when you're looking at a college search for that fit, it isn't just as easy when to pose the question, should I disclose or not disclose? Um, it's not a simple yes or no answer. It really depends on the schools that you're looking at and how you might fit in with that application process. You know, are you looking at a school that is really doing more weeding out and more denying than looking for ways to admit and how to admit? I kind of liken it to right now, we're in this era of should I disclose test scores or not to universities? It's not the same thing, but it's that same process. You really have to determine at each school you're applying what's the best road for me. Um, is this uh, you know, with will this give context to my application? I would say for most private liberal arts colleges that are like Worcester, that are selective but not uber selective, that it really can only help and add context, right? Because they might, if whatever your grades are, let's say you're an A student, um, and the student sitting next to you is an A, you have that benchmark now. But to talk about how you got that A, that's up to each student. And so if you can add context for how hard you had to work or how you had to work differently, and that provides context to the reader who's reading your application, I think that in most cases that can only enhance. But it is a personal, personal question. It is something that you'll have to navigate at each school a little bit. Going back to your earlier question about how much um virtual content is there, you can go out earlier now and be doing some of those behind-the-scene visits, going online, taking tours, going to information sessions, and and really have some of those answers before you you make that decision as you're kind of navigating the application process.
SPEAKER_03Well, that leads into my next question, which was about campus visits. But Kathy, does Wooster do interviews? Is that a part of the process?
SPEAKER_01We do. They're encouraged, they're not required, they are encouraged. It's something that we talk about with our staff members when we're talking about interviews and doing our training that um students are going to interview differently. And sometimes you have to look behind the context of what they're saying. So a neurodiverse student might interview very differently from somebody else, but but so might a student who has no interview training, who's from a very rural high school, and really hasn't had the context of why a college interview even really matters, right? And so it's helping to um have our admissions counselors understand it's not just about what's being said sometimes or how it's being said, but to get at behind the scenes, like who is this student? What are they gonna add to the college? Um, you know, how can we layer in those things? So I think that's important. But I would say that um if if you're talking about a student who you don't think an interview is going to add positively to an application, then you don't have to do it, is the other thing too. So don't feel just because it's encouraged by a school that you have to do it. But if you think that you know your student really can advocate for themselves or really put some context behind their application, then I think it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_03And is a virtual interview a possibility if somebody has social anxiety?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, at the College of Worcester, yeah. We have students applying from all over the world, and so we can't ask everyone to come to Ohio when most have not come to Ohio before they come to school. And so, yes, you can do a virtual interview as well.
SPEAKER_03And I know UCR does not do in-person interviews, but what about college campus visits? Is that a good idea?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. You're right. We don't do interviews, but I I do think campus visits are incredibly valuable to the process because it goes back to what Kathy was saying in terms of helping students navigate and understand is this campus, is this university, this college a fit for me? And you can do a much better job kind of navigating that question if you have the opportunity to visit a campus in person, best choice virtually, you can get a sense. But I think in it when there's an opportunity to visit a campus in person, um you have the ability to interact with lots of people on campus. We have our campus tours available, and then we also have admissions presentations that students can schedule right after a tour. Sometimes you you can go, you know, right next to where our campus tour office is, is our main student gathering hub. Can go over there, grab a bite to eat, and just you don't even have to talk to students. You could just sit down and listen to the conversations around you, observe and kind of get a sense, okay, is this a campus that I can visualize myself at? And a picture's worth a thousand words, a visit is worth a million.
SPEAKER_03And Emily, how do you see students on the spectrum navigating the admissions process? And what I mean is sort of like what seems to work well? Um what what what things do you find make people the most nervous? And kind of how do you demystify that for them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think students on the spectrum probably have similar anxieties as any other student applying to college, to be honest with you, because it is such a overwhelming process and very stressful that I would imagine is magnified for a student that is on the spectrum. I think one of the things, and we've already talked about this, that students get really wrapped behind the eight ball on are those personal essays, those personal insight questions, and really struggle with um how to present themselves on an application. That's hard for any 17 or 18-year-old to talk about themselves in a way that is marketing their skill sets, you know, and why a college should choose them. But my advice for a student on the spectrum would be the same as any other student is just to tell your story. Your story is your own. And that's what makes you unique and what can make you stand out as an individual. And through that process, ask questions of people that are close to you in terms of what do you think makes me stand out as an individual? Because those people that are close to you see things in you that you may not see in yourself. And I think that can sometimes spur ideas and dialogue about what how to present yourself on the application. And, you know, if there's an opportunity for a summer program, some sort of summer bridge to where that there's not as many students on campus and you can get connected with some resources there to help help with that process as you um are thinking as you're before you actually enroll.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would just um add a little in a kind of a different context that you know, through this process, when you're when you're when students are going through this and they're really looking for fit schools, you hope that the process starts to empower them, right? And so um it's not a natural process. Students haven't gone through it before. And so having conversations early with family members about how do I learn? How do I learn best? What supports do I have? What makes me not do well? What makes me do better? And and saying those things out loud, writing those things down, and then looking for those resources, especially if it's a small school where you're going to be able to set appointments, not just for a tour and a conversation or a lunch visit in the dining hall, but you can set a one-on-one appointment with the learning center officer or resource officer or disability officer, and having the student a little bit further down in the funnel, maybe when they're actually admitted, actually set those appointments themselves, right? And um go in for the conversation. Yes, a family member can be there, but have them really talk about here's the resources I have. Does your school have something? Here's what I would be looking for, what what would work for me? That really gives them, you know, a lot of empowerment, a lot of motivation, a lot of good confidence. So when they're making that big transition that Emily just talked about, and it is a big transition for everyone. Um, if anyone says they're not nervous on day one, they're lying to you. Um, but you know, it really, you know, when they're invested in that process and it's not just parents leading them through the students through, they come out on day one, week one, month one, better prepared to navigate and really feel a sense of ownership and a sense that they've picked the right school then in the process.
SPEAKER_03And Kathy, are the parents and the students uh who uh on the spectrum who are applying to Wooster, are they asking the right questions based on what you've seen play out as you watch so many students go through the process? And I guess the follow-up is what questions should a student with an invisible disability be asking about student life or disability services or academics?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's that's a hard one, right? Because everyone is different even on the spectrum and students learn differently. But are they asking the right question? Sometimes, sometimes not. I think there's two parts, especially for neurodiverse students, when they're looking at colleges and resources. Do they have the academic support and resource? What does that look like? Uh one example might be you know, I've had a note taker that's helped me in the past. Does your school have a note taker? Maybe, but it might be no, but we allow you, you know, these devices that help you record notes and then somebody to help you go back through. And so again, those questions of what has helped you, how do you get there and kind of move forward? The second piece, so if you're looking at academic compatibility, but then the social component. And sometimes those are very different things. Sometimes they're different offices on campus. And I think sometimes they don't ask both, or they they investigate one more than they investigate the other. You know, what should they be asking? Again, I think it's just a matter of looking at that student. What has helped them to succeed at this point? What has got them to the point where they feel confident and good and know that they can move forward? And let's talk about that before you pay a deposit, before you get there in the summer. And then one quick offshoot. I think another just thing overall, and not just for neurodiverse students to be asking about is but is what is the mental health support at these colleges? Because I think that can be such a make or break thing in terms of success on a college campus. And so you just want to be aware as a family and then as a student, what's offered, how is it offered, what's the wait time, et cetera. So that if that is something that down the road that your student needs, that you know where to go for that.
SPEAKER_03It's a good tip. Emily, anything to add?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the the only other piece that I would add is the housing component, is really kind of understanding what the housing community is like, what the living conditions are like. A lot of times on campuses there will be learning living communities that students can choose from based on different affinity type groups that that may feel more comfortable to a student than others. Our campus specifically, there's really kind of three types of residence halls that we offer. So researching what that looks like and visiting and kind of trying to get some insight into what would feel most comfortable to the student living on campus. Because I do think living on campus is an important part of the college experience. Going back to what Kathy was talking about, it empowers the students.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's interesting that you bring up housing because it is one of the areas where the students we've talked to have had the most challenges. And in fact, when I was talking with Maria Keller at the UC Riverside Disability Office, one of the changes she made at UCR was to bring housing under uh the disability student services purview so that she could have a hand in placing and accommodating her students who might have a disability, especially an invisible disability like autism. And I'm wondering the RA training or the selection of roommates, is there any way that your schools are sort of accommodating neurodiverse students without obviously violating people's privacy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good question. I I don't know that I could speak to that. Um Kathy, you might be in a position to speak to that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01It's a great question. I know that our RAs go through an extensive week and a half of training on all different types of things, um, including mental health support. But I I don't know if neurodiversity is on there. It's a great, it's a great question. I should look into that. But in terms of how um how roommates are placed, there is room to allow that to be part of the discussion. So not only is the housing office looking at their application, if they didn't disclose fine, if they did, fine, either way, but every school has some version of a housing application. And having the students fill it out, not the parents, and having the students be real on that, you know, it's it's not about saying I'm a neurodiverse student. It's just talking about your trends and your habits and how you engage and how you don't engage. And that's gonna help them place you with a better pairing of a roommate than not. And so um, whether the the word autism is used on the application, I think is almost a moot point. It's almost like going back to what Emily said about being real on the essay. It's about being real, not who you want to be in college, but who you are now. That's gonna help um help with the housing process.
SPEAKER_03And it does seem like, having just gone through this, that the the questionnaire on the housing did was specific enough to kind of say, like, you know, how messy are you, how social are you, you know, do you want your room to be the center of activity? Do you want it to be a place where you can sort of be quiet? You know, so so at to your point, Kathy, it seems like you can kind of get into the same um area where you could find a good fit just by being really honest and not saying that your child is neater than they really are on their application.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Is there anything that I have not asked you that you would like to offer?
SPEAKER_00I I would just underscore um the fact that we are here in the admissions offices to be a resource to um students as they are navigating this process. And so I would really encourage students to utilize um us as that, as a resource, not to be afraid just because we have the title of admissions officer. We are admissions officers. We're not, at least on our campus, we're not denial officers. We really want to work to um to help ensure the students have the best experience possible. And and even if something comes up down the road after a student's been admitted and maybe something might show up on their academic record that is something that we didn't know about or wasn't reported on their application, the sooner students um share that information with us, disclose it, um, the more opportunities and resources and and pathways we can provide the student. So um it's always good to have an open dialogue with the admissions office throughout the process, and that's why we are here. Um and if and if students are not experiencing a positive interaction with admissions officers or the admissions office, then that that should be a question that they should be asking themselves. What is this representing of my future interactions on on campus?
SPEAKER_01So I think that's a good point, Emily. And um it is it's it does seem almost counterintuitive to families. You know, you're going into these offices and you're like, oh my gosh, like, you know, their their job is to admit or deny. But but in reality, the job of every college office is to try and be as transparent and supportive as possible. Why? Because we really want students who are going to be good fits in the end. And there's thousands of colleges, Eric, like you said, you know, that the same fit for student A is not the same student for um fit for student B. And so we we need to be transparent because we want students to come and thrive and add to our community. And so going into the process, knowing that you have advocates for you, that you can ask real questions, that you can be your true self and get answers that are gonna be good for you. Sometimes they're not the answers you want to hear, um, right? But um, they're the answers that you need to hear so that you can move forward in the process. And in the end, when you're on that college campus, you know you have a fit. Um, you know that there's gonna be bumps along the road. There's bumps for every student. But when you when you truly do a search and you've asked the right questions and you've been on the campus and you've talked to um admissions officers like Emily or myself, um you can weather those bumps a little bit more knowing that I've put the time in, this is gonna be a good fit, I know where I can go for resources and kind of move forward.
SPEAKER_03So maybe as a as a way to close out, uh Emily, what should students keep top of mind when they're facing the blank personal statement screen or or application page?
SPEAKER_00My biggest piece of advice is tell your story, talk about you. That can be challenging because students have a tendency to talk about their favorite person or their favorite teacher or somebody that has been inspirational to them. We're not admitting any of those people. We are admitting you as the student. And so the focus needs to be on you and what you have experienced over the course of you know your recent past, your high school career that has made you who you are today and how you're gonna contribute to our institutions going forward.
SPEAKER_01I think my piece of advice, uh going back to your question about staring at a blank computer screen or blank piece of paper, is relax and don't overthink it. Just like Emily said, just be you. Just write. Start writing, go back. If you if you give yourself enough time, if you're not doing uh, you know, a series of essays or your personal statements a week before they're due, you're automatically going to be rushed. But if you give give it time and you go back and you read it and you think, yeah, that sounds like me, then that's your essay. That's your personal statement. You want it to be you, you want it to be, you know, not your friend, not somebody you sit next to with in class. And so just don't overthink it. Don't get in a loop, start writing down, come back to it, finish it, and then move on. And and things will work out.
SPEAKER_03Don't overthink it. What every high school senior wants to hear. Well, thank you both so much for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Eric. Thanks for having us. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_03That is our show for today. Thank you so much for listening, following us on Instagram and Facebook, and thank you especially for adding your reviews on Apple Podcasts. Our show is very specifically for students on the spectrum navigating college, and we really appreciate the appreciation for Autism Goes to College. And now, as promised, here are the ways to see the film. The documentary film Autism Goes to College is currently available through many channels, but the easiest way to see it today is to rent it on Vimeo on Demand, which you can access from your Apple TV or most smart TVs by going to the Vimeo on Demand app. You can find a link at our website, www.autismgoes to college.org. The film is also available for educational use and for live and hybrid screening events. All the relevant info and links can be found on our website. Don't forget, please follow us on Instagram to stay current and consider joining our vibrant community on Facebook. Fun fact, this project was recognized as the best of the internet by the Webby Awards Anthem Awards this year, winning gold for diversity, equity, and inclusion. And we keep making it better. So reach out if you'd like to get involved. Thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_02Hey, thanks for listening to Autism Goes to College. We'd love to hear from you about what you'd like to hear more about. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Autism Goes to College. Hit us up with your thoughts, tell us what's going on on your campus and in your college life. To see the documentary film or set up a screening, check out our website at autism goes to college.org.